PILOT: Speaking truth to power on sex and labour trafficking

The Traffik Report
Pilot Episode: Speaking truth to power on sex and labour trafficking

NOTE: Transcripts may contain errors. Please check the audio before quoting in print.

Elvira Truglia 

Welcome, it's time for The Traffik Report, a podcast that navigates sex and labour trafficking in Canada. Join us as we close the gap between the image and the reality of human trafficking. I'm your co-host Elvira Truglia.

Fay Faraday 

And I'm Fay Faraday. On this show, we have real conversations, share ideas about what's working on the ground, and build solutions for economic and gender justice

Elvira Truglia 

I'm a longtime human rights advocate and journalist and the former anti trafficking coordinator at a national refugee and migrant rights organization in Montreal.

Fay Faraday 

I'm a labour and human rights lawyer, a law professor and a community organizer. I've been working with migrant women, undocumented women, and women facing violence for the last 30 years.

Elvira Truglia  

Today, we introduce you to an inspiring collective of frontline workers and advocates who support youth, women, trans and non binary folks, and migrants facing sexual or labour exploitation. The Traffik Report Collective wants to dig up the root causes of trafficking and find solutions.

Fay Faraday  

We met each other thanks to the Canadian Women's Foundation who funded part of the work we're doing in our communities. Sharing our knowledge over the last five years has made us better advocates and helped us see connections across towns, cities, provinces, territories, and national borders. We created this podcast so we can keep having those conversations, and also to invite you to join us.

Elvira Truglia 

In this pilot episode, we asked collective members to share their personal and professional stories about what brought them to this work, and what excites them about the podcast.  Just to start things off, if everyone could just take turns, stating your name and the organization that you're affiliated with.

Leah Woolner 

Alright, so my name is Leah Woolner. And I am an Intervenante psychosociale or intervention worker at an organization in Montreal called the Movement Against Rape and Incest.

Rebecca Alexander  

Hi, my name is Rebecca Alexander. I am the housing program coordinator at the Elizabeth Fry Society. 

Leah Woolner 

We are a small grassroots sexual assault center that has been around since 1975, and we work specifically with all women who have experienced any form of violence, but I specifically work with migrant women who have experienced exploitation of any kind.

Rebecca Alexander  

I help Indigenous women who have experienced sexual exploitation find appropriate housing here in the city of Edmonton.

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren  

Hi, my name is Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren and I work at YWCA Halifax.

Lauren Mathias 

Good morning. My name is Lauren Mathias and I am a program manager here at PLEA Community Services in the Vancouver coastal region.

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren  

I'm the coordinator for the trafficking and exploitation services system. And what we're trying to do is address human trafficking and sexual exploitation in Nova Scotia through systems response so creating a response system through partnership work in Nova Scotia.

Lauren Mathias  

Our program is called the OnyxWorks program. We provide employment services for youth who are involved in our Onyx program and are those youth who are at risk of or currently being sexually exploited or human trafficked.

Fay Faraday  

Hi, I'm Fay Faraday. I'm a lawyer based in Toronto and I am working with the Barbara Schlifer Commemorative Clinic as the coordinator on their migrant women's rights project.

Elvira Truglia 

I'm Elvira Truglia. I'm based in Montreal. I worked at the Canadian Council for Refugees as the anti trafficking coordinator for four and a half years.

Fay Faraday 

The Schlifer Clinic is a specialized unique clinic that focuses specifically on helping women who have experienced violence and provides legal, interpretation and counseling services. This project is for them focusing on collaborating with women in the community who have experienced gender based violence in migration.

Elvira Truglia  

And in the anti trafficking initiative we had sort of multiple objectives. And one of them is around policy change trying to influence policy change in terms of trafficking and legislation. And in a way that actually increases trafficked person's access to legal remedies and pathways to immigration. Another of the objectives was really around capacity building and working with frontline workers and other advocates to create, to share resources, to share strategies for a collective community response to trafficking, but in particular trafficking with migrants who are undocumented, or do not have status.

Jessica Wilson  

So I'm Jessica Wilson, I work for Fort Frances Tribal Health Services as the special projects coordinator. I'm mainly working with human trafficking individuals.

Karen Campbell  

My name is Karen Campbell, and I am a program manager at the Canadian Women's Foundation. We are a national public foundation that supports women's organizations across the country. And in this case, we fund programs that are providing all kinds of different supports for women who have experienced exploitation, sexual exploitation, labour, exploitation, and violence.

Elvira Truglia  

Thanks, everyone. Coast to coast, we've heard from people who are working to end sexual or labour exploitation in Canada. So to continue our conversation, we were hoping you could share what brought you to this work, was there a personal or professional experience that led you on this path?

Fay Faraday  

I'm happy to break the ice on this because from my own perspective, I come to this work as someone who has a lengthy lived experience of extreme sexual violence starting in childhood. And I have through my work, I think been working out different angles of this, I wrote my thesis on the sex trade, I have been working with undocumented workers, working with labour exploitation amongst migrant workers, working with undocumented migrant sex workers. And so my personal experience and my professional life have really been building in effect towards this particular project that brings all those different parts of myself together at a stage where I feel really able to take on this part of the work.

Elvira Truglia  

So it's really a marriage of your personal and your professional experience that you're bringing to, to this project.

Fay Faraday  

Yeah, and it's also the reality that it takes many, many years of healing from that exploitation to be able to work with these issues in a in a healthy way, and to provide support to other people. So it's really all of those different threads coming together at the right time. From the many conversations that we've had together over the years something that is a thread that connects many of us to this work, this is undeniably difficult work. And there's often a real personal connection to what keeps us in the work, why we do it, why we are committed to working better in this space.

Elvira Truglia  

Maybe I'll just jump in and share one of my personal experiences - one of the reasons that brought me to this work. So many years ago, I took part in a program that gave recent graduates an opportunity to be matched with an employer overseas. And you know, at first this was very exciting. I was matched with an employer in Italy. As a second generation Italian-Canadian, this was an opportunity to gain work experience and also to connect with my roots. But instead, the experience quickly turned sour as the employer was someone who recruited multiple international students; really, as a means to fill his workforce with cheap labour. And although the recent grads who were recruited by this particular employer faced different working conditions, really the common thread was that there were no rights attached to the employment. You could be kicked out on a whim and be left without a job, without payment. And with a quickly expiring work visa, and limited prospects of finding new employment. Nevertheless, I consider myself lucky because I had a choice; I could leave and and that's what I did. I came back to Canada. It was extremely disappointing and it's an experience that's really marked me to this day. But still, I think about people, you know, the many migrants who come to Canada and face unfair or extremely exploitative work conditions. And they stay, because they don't have a choice. For me, the idea of having a choice is so important. And what I see and I have seen so many stories, and so many examples of people that have constrained choices, or don't have a choice at all, and don't know how to exit the situation. And I think that needs to change. So I came to this work as someone who has been in a situation of precarious status, but I also come to the work as the daughter of working class immigrant parents, as a woman. And as a mother of an interracial teenage daughter. I sit on that continuum of many gray areas. And I've always been interested in exploring gray areas, and really the lines between justice and injustice.

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren  

I'm happy to jump in. So I've, I've spent the last decade working with women's organizations, so organizations that have a narrow gender mandate and support women and their families. So I really feel like landing at YWCA Halifax was just a continuation of that. I'm originally from Alberta but I've also lived in BC, Ontario, Quebec, and now Nova Scotia. So with my background in working in these organizations, as well as an educational background in Women and Gender Studies, I really felt like it was a great fit. And when the opportunity came up to work with this particular project, so addressing specifically commercial sexual exploitation in Nova Scotia, so we focus on that piece of human trafficking, so really, the exploitation of sexual labour. I identify as a former sex worker. So really, this is also a space for me to come and bring my lived experience in addition to my professional experience, in a way that I think really can add to it. Because what I like to say sometimes in some of the training that we do, you know, you're not part of that club, until you're part of that club. It's, it's something else to understand what the sex trade is, and what some of the realities are, but until you are in the sex trade, and you're and you're working in that capacity, or if there's been a force, or coercion, or manipulation, but even just the act of exchanging sex or sexual acts for money, or for something of value, that really, it's difficult to understand that until you've experienced that. So for myself, this this is a place and a time to also bring all those things together and, and even use it as as a way to, to come to terms with it. So that is you know, even even till a recent time, the shame, the blame, the guilt, that existed with that experience, have been really real, whether coming from within or coming from other people, right. And so I think being able to bring that together and move the work forward with both of those pieces is really important to me.

Fay Faraday  

I just want to comment on that Thunder, because I think that this process itself being part of that healing is really important. And I remember at our very first meeting as a group four years ago, is the first time I started talking in a professional context about my experience of sexual violence, and how that feeds into the work I do. And now, that's not a barrier at all to talk about that. But finding the spaces to bring your whole self to the work is really important.

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren  

Absolutely. And I'm also really excited seeing these, these types of best practices emerge around engaging folks with lived experience and the importance of peer support and survivor informed practice. And so I think that also really has a role in this work as well. And I find that exciting and so important.

Leah Woolner  

I guess I'll jump in here. So similarly to all of you, I think, I also have a personal connection to this work. So like many women, I'm also a survivor of sexual violence. That's been something that has most definitely, implicitly and at times explicitly informed my life decisions and my career path, I think I was really drawn to focusing on the issue of sexual violence in my studies, and also in my professional life, because of having observed not only people who are close to me, experienced sexual violence, but also have lived experience of sexual violence as well. In regards to to working with migrant communities, that's something that is also deeply, deeply personal. To me, being part of the Philippine diaspora means that, you know, in my upbringing, I've heard so much about in my own family migration experiences and you know, talking to my mom about what it was like for her to come to the United States immigrate to the United States and as well as my my extended family in California and all of those experiences are very were always, I guess, just very alive in my head as as a kid in my imagination, but also in concretely in my real life. I guess the other thing that is really important to me in terms of how I see myself in the work that I do, is also the fact that I'm biracial. So my dad is white. And so that's something that has been really important to me in the sense that I think I grew up being really sensitive to the issue of race and seeing very clearly, all throughout my life, the differences in between the way that my mother was treated, and the way that my dad was treated, in terms of their race, in terms of their class. So that's something that is really also important to me, that idea of like racial justice and racial equity. I've, migrated a lot, my family moved around a lot. And I've lived in a number of different countries. And so I think, I come to this work, humbly, having had those experiences, and really, I believe, really feeling what it is to, to be an outsider, or to fit in these spaces that are perhaps not well defined, whether it's racially being ambiguous, or these other types of spaces, you know, migration, citizenship, all these spaces in which there's this gray area. And I think that this job in particular has allowed for me to really, not only within myself, but with the folks that I work with, push on these issues, and, you know, hopefully, make some real changes, whether it's on the individual level, or on a more systemic level.

Fay Faraday  

That's such a, an important point that you bring in Leah about the way that race and migration intersect with all this work. And, you know, as someone who is also, Filipina, Leah, and I look like we could be sisters. And so much of the work that I do is with Filipina women who are in terrible situations of labour migration that involves both labour and sexual exploitation. So that is a really deep personal connection. That's there every day in my work as well.

Lauren Mathias  

Hi, I'm gonna jump in here. So I actually never really intended to kind of end up in this type of work. I initially started working with youth almost 15 years ago, and had a passion for criminal justice, social justice, wanted to work with young offenders, and then kind of came upon this program, working with youth who are at risk of or being sexually exploited. And honestly, the moment that I became involved with the program, it just stayed near and dear to my heart, just kind of realize the importance of the work that needed to be done, and the awareness and the education that needs to happen at such a young age, and the importance of not only teaching young folks, but families, parents, educators, and proper language and terminology and what that looks like what's kept me in this work for so long, because as you mentioned, it is difficult, it's challenging, it's hard to hear those stories, it's hard to walk with folks who just constantly feel like the world is falling upon them daily, is that becoming a mother actually was a bit of a challenge. For a long time part of it was like, I don't want to hear about this anymore, because now I have a daughter, but part of it was also like I have a daughter. And these folks are somebody's daughter, somebody's child. And there's a lot of damage that's been done. And we have a lot of work to do a lot of support that can be done. And it's important that we have these warriors, these survivors, these folks working with various people have different life experiences to help overcome those challenges. I've been involved in this work now almost 10 years and I don't foresee ever leaving. Although I am really excited about the way that the government and higher levels of folks are starting to see the importance of putting dollars behind these programs. It's really a great time to see hopefully a shift. There's still tons of work to be done. But you know, from our end, especially working with young people, we see so much value in every single child and making sure that we provide specialized services individual plans, that tailors to the needs of that person because everybody matters and every child matters.

Rebecca Alexander  

Okay, so what brought me to this work probably was when I was in university, I volunteered for the sexual assault Center at the University and I was in education and although sexual assault and sexual exploitation are different, they're still in the same realm of like sexual violence and I was an educator. So I would go to classrooms and I would talk about sexual violence. And I found it to be really empowering to talk about like a very taboo topic, but have everyone kind of be engaged and especially, like young folks really be engaged and really wanting to try to combat sexual violence in some way. So that's kind of what brought me to this work, because then when I graduated, I applied for this job. And they're like, here, great, because you have that background. So I was like, Oh, yay. And obviously, there's like personal connections and everything like that, I've always been really connected to social justice as well. Being biracial as, but I'm half black and half white, has really inspired me. And my partner is part Cree. And he's really taught me about indigenous issues. And I felt like we kind of taught each other about each other's backgrounds. And so that's what brought me to this work.

Elvira Truglia  

The question is basically what brought you to this work, and if there's anything in your personal or professional experience that, that you want to share that that actually brought you to the work?

Jessica Wilson  

Mainly because I am a survivor. I was trafficked at 17. And it just really wasn't back when I was being trafficked, there was no resources, there was no supports, people weren't talking about it. You just kind of got through it, I guess on my own. And then this amazing grant was introduced to me from my agency from Canadian Women's and I started really exploring it and doing some personal work, just bringing the awareness in this small little area that we live in, and realizing how many people don't actually recognize what trafficking is. And I really made it my goal to bring that awareness and preventative measures, and especially working with parents, like parents weren't having the conversation with their children, parents were scared of even bringing anything like this up. And I thought it was so important for me to start the preventative work with the youth, then supporting the individuals that were being trafficked in this area, just because there was absolutely no resources and supports in our area. So that's mainly where my passion came from.

Fay Faraday  

I think that the responses that so many of you have given really lead into the next question, because you've all been highlighting how these are incredibly important issues that we don't talk about enough that their silence that is around these issues, prevents the kind of understanding in the community the kind of help that could be available to people, even just understanding how complex these issues are You know, we're embarking on this podcast, we're embarking on The Traffik Report, and what are the kinds of questions that you want to have answered? Why do you think the podcast will be a good way to begin to answer those questions?

Lauren Mathias  

You know, we talked about how people don't necessarily understand it's happening here, or human trafficking that's not a Canadian issue. Labour, trafficking, sexual violence, all of those things, well, that doesn't happen here or we don't talk about that. So I really feel like having this collective voice in this podcast will bring a voice to what we're doing, but also in a way that kind of humanizes it. We're just average people. I just feel like Hollywood glamorizes it a lot. When you think of like "Taken" like, Oh, my child's been stolen. Like that's not what happens. I see Rebecca nodding. For me, I really feel like this is an opportunity for us to just have a conversation, talk about this in a way that doesn't feel so daunting, or doom and gloom. But also, there's some uplifting and uprising moments through the darkness. And then so for me, that's what I really hope that this project can achieve.

Rebecca Alexander 

Yeah, I think my hope with this podcast as well is to kind of take away the sensationalism of it and for people to understand what human trafficking and sexual exploitation like really is, and what people can actually tangibly do to prevent it. And also just like what other organizations do, how are they combating human trafficking in their own different unique ways? And to see that there are resources out there? Yeah, "Taken". It's always funny. You see people who like post about "Taken" and you're like, oh no, this is not. Right? It's unfortunately a lot more prevailing, but like normalized, right? So really bring that to the forefront for people to really understand.

Karen Campbell 

One of the ideas that I think is so important to be able to communicate in a podcast like this, in addition to what you're saying about the stereotypes, and the imagery that's associated with trafficking and that not being really the lived experience that people have is that the idea of rescuing somebody from this kind of situation doesn't actually change the underlying conditions that put them there. And I want to learn, what's the, the traumatic thing that happened to them. It's that kind of like trauma porn idea that people get that gravitate to. What I hear them saying is I want to learn how to rescue somebody. That that's what I hear in trafficking discourse. And I really hope that this podcast can interrupt that and, and provide a different story that's based on what you folks are seeing every day.

Elvira Truglia  

Thank you so much for that, Karen. That's a super important point that you raised around the underlying conditions. And that actually is one of the central focuses of the work at CCR. And that's why we do work towards policy change. Why in particular forced labour situations happen have a lot to do with with government policies, and we want to deconstruct that. And we also are trying to engage with the policymakers, and to help policymakers have a deeper understanding of the impact of policy on people. And we've done that in many different ways. And one of the things that keeps coming up is how the work to end the trafficking happens in silos, but also the policy work happens in silos, and people aren't communicating with each other. So one thing that I'm hoping that will come from this podcast is the ability to create those bridges within the policymaker community, but also within the community of frontline workers who are working, whether it be against sexual exploitation, or whether it's against labour exploitation. So that's one of one of my hopes, and and it's also the the education piece or the understanding trafficking piece. One of the things that became super clear to me almost at the beginning of starting the work with CCR is the notion of the spectrum of exploitation. And the frontline workers that are part of our anti trafficking committee kept saying, well, this doesn't quite fit the definition, the government definition of trafficking; this fits more around the definition of labour exploitation. But there's this spectrum, and at one point, unperfect working conditions can become trafficking situations. And it's up to the frontline worker to, to be able to assess that, to understand it, and then also to come up with a response. But it's also the responsibility of policymakers to understand that as well. So I'm hoping that through our conversations, those nuances will become a little clearer for everyone.

Fay Faraday  

One of the things that I think calls out for having a podcast like this is the fact that conversations around trafficking are so polarized, that people have strong opinions, strong assumptions that they bring into the public space around this. And that it is really difficult to communicate across those different silos. It's not just that we're doing different work. It's that people bring in really different baseline assumptions of what kind of work it is. What this means for the women who are experiencing gender and economic exploitation. And I think that this can create the space that is non partisan in the sense that it's not putting down stakes in any polarized position. But it's actually trying to look at how complex the issues are and how so many different pieces interconnect. One of the things that I think is so valuable about the experiences that we've had as a collective is that we are coming from very different places, working with youth, working with Indigenous women, working with migrant women, working in rural communities and urban communities right across the country. And yet, so many of the baseline conditions are the same. The experiences that we're encountering have so many resonances across all the different areas that we work. And it's not often that we can have a conversation that allows for that richness of experience. There's usually an opportunity for a quick soundbite or, you know, a flashy image that calls up lots of stereotypes and assumptions. But not an opportunity to take the time to talk at the length that it takes to talk and listen to the voices of women who have the lived experience. And move slowly towards understanding where we connect and how we can work together on this.

Rebecca Alexander  

Yeah, I think another really big issue is just the listening. And we tied into policymakers, you have a lot of policymakers who have folks on the committee that don't necessarily have lived experience, or who don't work in the industry long enough. So they kind of put in their own kind of biases and everything like that. Then what kind of ends up happening is you end up making oppressive policies that affect the people that you're trying to protect. So it's extremely important for people to listen. And I think in this work, where I came from a background of sexual violence, but when I came into this work, I didn't have as much knowledge. And really, I just needed to listen and make sure that you know, not assert my own biases, or the think that Oh, I'm an expert, because I'm in university, right? Like, I had to take a step back and listen, and not put my academic brain but put my like human brain on and listen to folks. So that's like, just super important, I think that we don't do enough.

Jessica Wilson  

For me I think something that's really important and question that I would like across the podcast, or for service providers, and people to understand that you're not rescuing these people, we're not coming and saving the day, it's more or less, giving them the tools in order to make their own choices in how they want to see what's going forward. And I think that's a huge issue, especially in this area, where service providers are thinking that they're like, coming in and rescuing these people, when really, just giving the choice back to the person I think is important. And not having that coming in and saving the day kind of attitude is important. And like you just said, like listening is huge, it's so important to listen to what the individual needs, and also understanding that every individual's situation is different. And understanding that most survivors are going to go back into the situations that they are in. And that's okay. And we are still doing good work and to keep moving forward and doing what we continue to do.

Leah Woolner 

What Jessica just said really resonates with me, I always hesitate to tell people what exactly it is that I do, because then I know that there's going to be this kind of immediate outpouring of either of questioning or comments, which, you know, sometimes I'm happy to answer and then sometimes, I'm not really in the mood. But one of the things that is often said in one way or another is "Isn't that an issue for law enforcement?". And I find this problematic for many of the reasons that has already been addressed by all of you. But really this idea that survivors of trafficking need to be rescued, but also that there's an individual solution to their individual problem, when really, if we're looking at all of the things that make the various different folks that we work with vulnerable, it's the systemic issues, it's systemic precariousness on a multitude of different levels. And so, you know, one of the great things about this podcast is having the opportunity to really look in depth at what those things are, and have a discussion about them in a way that's really able to address these nuances.

Elvira Truglia  

I wante to pick up on that on what you just said, Leah, and I think it leads into so the next area that we're hoping to explore. And what are your perceptions of what other people's perceptions are of the phenomenon of human trafficking? Do people cringe when they hear the word? And you know, why do you think that is? Sort of an open question to explore this a little bit further...

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren  

I have to say, I did giggle a little bit actually, Leah, when you said you know, you sometimes are hesitant to tell people what you do, because I really identify with that. It's not so much. You know, I'm proud of what I do. And and I recognize the importance of it. But it's more that anytime I've started that conversation, I either get the deer in headlights look, and it just stops and then there's no possibility to even have a conversation because people feel really uncomfortable. Or they they think it's scary or they're in denial, or there's lots of different feelings that come up and it just stops. And so you know, I often I often joke a little bit, you know, how do I introduce myself and say, Hi, I'm Thunder. I'm super fun. I work in human trafficking and violence and abuse against women. And it stops. But I think if you have the opportunity to get past that, you know, I do really think that specifically around denial that we've brought up or just this head in the sand idea that this doesn't happen in Canada. This doesn't happen in Nova Scotia, this doesn't happen in Alberta, this doesn't happen in BC, this doesn't happen in the territories. Really, you know, thinking that this, this is a problem elsewhere. And maybe it's being imported here, but it's not happening domestically, it's not happening on the ground. So I think there's huge denial. And then there's also, you know, if there is an understanding that this is happening, then there can be fear. There can be a lot of these misconceptions that we see with mainstream portrayals of what human trafficking looks like. And then you get back to that really polarized part of the issue. And I'll say specifically for the work we do, because we work with commercial sexual exploitation, you add sex into the mix, and you add the sex trade into the mix. And all of a sudden, you have even more opinions and morals and values and judgments and biases that are being placed on that. And it it, it really creates this difficult space to even start a conversation with a lot of people.

Leah Woolner 

I totally have that same experience. I feel like people just run from me. They just run as soon as I tell them what it is that I do. And especially like the name because I work at an organization that is emerged out of like 70s feminism. And it's it was the first sexual assault center in Quebec. So it's called the Movement Against Rape and Incest. And you can't there's no way to get around that title, right? There's no you can't, it's just it's in your face and it's meant to be. And so when people ask me, I always feel like I'm in this spot where I need to judge like, like, how far am I going to go here is it is like a professional setting? Is this like a family dinner? Is this a stranger that I'm just going to terrify? And then I'll never see them again? How far do I need to go? You know, there are these different reactions, but somewhere, and somehow we have a responsibility, I think, to kind of to address them.

Rebecca Alexander  

I think when people react to my job, when I give the actual title, it's kind of this weird, like, Oh my gosh, you do great work, which is like this savior complex that has like, started to make me feel like very uncomfortable. Because when we engage in the conversation, it's like, oh, like, what can I do? It's like, oh, like, give people a livable wage. They're like, Oh, nevermind, I'm out. Yeah, it's a very weird savior complex that they have. And I just to be honest, I'm just like a cheerleader is really what I am. I'm not like a savior. They're doing the hard work. They're processing their trauma, I'm just there to be like, the one person who like believes in you and gives you no judgement, right? It's very strange when people react to like my actual title of my job, kind of uncomfortable. So

Lauren Mathias  

I get the same reaction to like, oh, what do you do for work? And I'm like, do you want the short version or the long version, but essentially, I work with people. That's what I want to say. You kind of have to gauge who you're speaking to in your audience because sometimes I'm like, you actually need to hear this. I need to kind of educate you and not in a sense that I'm speaking down to you or trying to sensationalize what's happening, but you really have no clue what's going on and I'd love to just have a simple conversation about that. But then also like this whole savior thing, like, wow, you know, I'm not really doing that kind of amazing stuff. I'm just sitting and walking with people, I'm listening to their stories, I'm figuring out what they need help with and what that looks like, and how to specialize and tailor that to their particular needs and situations. So I absolutely agree with everything you said. I think it's Leah, for sure I remember joining this group and when I heard where you're working, I was like, Wow, that is a name. It's not hiding anything. Like this is what we do, which is great, because I think it's important to be a bit outside the box and get those conversations going. Yeah, it's it's always a tricky balance to say like, I feel like I have this responsibility because I have this knowledge I want to share with you I want to tell you this is happening here and in Canada is because of our criminal justice system, because of the code Canada is a place where actually it's a top destination for folks to come and traffic people and engage in exploitation, violence, and oftentimes nothing's done about it.

Elvira Truglia  

One thing that keeps coming up is the idea of not in my backyard, right? Like that this doesn't happen in Canada. And for sure, this is something that we're hoping to explore as we move forward with the podcast. And it's certainly the case when it comes to forced labour and people's knowledge of forced labour. When I've told people I'm the ant trafficking coordinator. The first response is usually, 'Oh, wow', like there's this sense of awe, similar to what you've been sharing that well, it's super important work, but I know nothing about it. And then when I talk a little bit about what that actually means and it's about migrant workers and how they're exploited through the temporary foreign worker program, and other ways that people can have precarious status, and how they could find themselves in situations of exploitation that they can't get out of, then the awe becomes 'Really?', this happens in Canada? And then as you continue to talk to people a little bit further, what comes out is well, yeah, I noticed the migrant workers; they're working in my community. Then it kind of clicks and they realize, well, maybe I know actually some of these people that are being exploited, I just didn't realize it. So that's something that I'm hoping that we're going to be able to continue to talk about in this podcast. And and also, again, bridging the silos of sexual exploitation and labour trafficking and seeing what the commonalities are in those experiences.

Fay Faraday  

I'm someone who has absolutely no difficulty in having those difficult conversations at the dinner table, I'm the, the guest, you probably don't want at your dinner table for that reason. People really do recoil when you mention trafficking, or labour exploitation, or gender based violence. And I think there's a lot of magical thinking around it, where if you don't say the words, then it can stay hidden. But oh, my goodness, if you let those words slip out, it's like a contagion and now it's going to happen. So I think that there's a lot of education that needs to be done to bring people's comfort level up around having difficult conversations. And they'll realize that once you start to talk about things, we're just talking about people. And it's not scary. It is, of course, it's difficult fixing things. But if you can't talk about it you can't fix it. And I worry, on the other hand, that while some people recoil, when you hear about the words, human trafficking, other people have picked it up as a banner, and they are running with it. And making it public policy priority in a way that is not in fact responsive, or reflective of the experiences of women on the ground. And that is really dangerous, because it becomes a distortion that serves political purposes, but doesn't actually serve women. So I think we have two different reactions to the words, and creating the space to talk about it over an extended period of time allows for that learning. And one of the things that will become apparent on the podcast pretty much immediately is that we break apart the entire language of trafficking, and the ways in which it allows people to hide behind their assumptions instead of actually dealing with reality. But another thing that's going to be apparent almost immediately, is how much we laugh when we do this work. Yes, it's hard. But you know, even as we're talking now, I can see your faces on the screen. We're all smiling and nodding and laughing. Off mic. But there's a real solidarity and mutual support in the community that is really sustaining is really resilient, and cuts through all the stereotypes that people have about, you know, this being a scary place to be.

Elvira Truglia  

As a final question for the group, what are you excited about sharing in this podcast or doing in this podcast? Why do you find the podcast exciting to be part of?

Rebecca Alexander  

I think it's exciting, breaking down stereotype, bringing the truth to like what human trafficking and sexual exploitation is. But I'm also really excited to focus on empowerment, and just talk about how strong that a lot of my clients specifically are. So I think it's very important that we focus also on empowerment as well.

Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren 

I'm excited for the knowledge sharing, that's going to happen, I think this is a really unique opportunity that we have, and have had to connect with each other across the country. You know, I think that sometimes we get really focused on our own work and our own region, our own lives, etc. And so really having this opportunity to connect with each other and connect the themes as well from across the country is really important, and is pretty unique. We share a lot of similar themes. You know, we share laws across Canada with regards to human trafficking and sexual exploitation. A lot of the root causes are very similar, but how it shows up and the services that are available are really different in different communities. And so I'm excited to learn from everybody and to share what we're doing and and bring some of that excitement and that hope into the work as well. Because the reality is that you know that it is tough and it is heavy sometimes and so I think it's important that we work in this field and folks that are involved in this, that we also have the opportunity to come together and reflect and uplift each other and celebrate the work we're doing and learn from each other. So I'm excited for that.

Lauren Mathias  

I'm excited by the fact that we are like creating a tool that can be used long term, and that people can constantly go back to this and listen to it over and you know, get different perspectives every time you listen to something new. And also the fact that sometimes people don't want to have that conversation but this is a way that they can, on their own time in their own space, listen to something, have their own opinions, I guess. And it will give people just a chance to listen in their own safe space. And I think that's important, creating that safe space. But it will also be an opportunity to know that there's resources across Canada, they can access. It's pretty amazing. It's a pretty amazing opportunity.  Basically I really feel like this is an accessible platform to learn about it, listen to a podcast, when you're cooking dinner, you're driving, and you're commuting. This is a bit of a legacy project for our cohort where we've been together. And although we've had different folks coming in and out with the various organizations that we have, there are themes, there are ideas and notions that we all share, I think it's important. You know, I know I have learned a lot from this group, and I'm in this work. So can you just imagine what something will come of this with all of our knowledge and how that intersects with whether it's race or gender or all of those things. I'm really excited to hear how our voices can blend together and kind of create this woven intersection of the work that we're doing.

Rebecca Alexander  

Yeah, I really agree. It's basically kind of like we're making something that's one part intensive seminar, one part group therapy, one part tool, a resource. And that in and of itself, for me is exciting. And I really hope that other people will enjoy listening to it, too.

Fay Faraday 

There's also one big part community mobilizing around this. And I'm really excited, first of all, about continuing the conversations that we've had over the last four years as a cohort. I can't tell you how much I love connecting up with you women on a regular basis. And I'm really excited about all the people who we are going to interview. All the different perspectives that we're going to bring into the work. How much larger the conversation is going to get. And how we're all going to keep learning from this. That excites me.

Elvira Truglia  

I agree, I agree with with what everyone has shared. And Fay you talked about community mobilizing, and that's one of the things I'm super excited about. And there is a movement against trafficking in Canada. And the people that I'm looking at, the faces that I'm looking at, are part of that movement. But there's so many other people, there's so many other people doing great work. And I'm super excited to be able to introduce some of those people to our podcast audience and also to some of you who may not already know who they are. It is not going to be just heavy - let's look at the causes, and how Canada's immigration system is creating some of the problems that we're seeing. But it's also about well, what is the community response? And taking a look at what is the collective response that we all have a piece in realizing really, those are some of the things I'm excited about. That wraps up our pilot episode of The Traffik Report. Join us for our first season called Yes, in my backyard: busting myths about trafficking.

Fay Faraday  

Make sure you subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast service. Also visit our website at thetraffikreport.ca. That's traffik with a K. We'll be posting resources and links with each episode. Tune in next time for a conversation on the herstory of trafficking. My name is Fay Faraday

Elvira Truglia  

And I'm Elvira Truglia. In today's episode you heard from Leah Woolner at the Movement Against Rape and Incest in Montreal, Rebecca Alexander at the Elizabeth Fry Society in Edmonton, Thunder Shanti Narooz van Egteren at the YWCA Halifax, Lauren Mathias at PLEA Community Services in Vancouver, Jessica Wilson at Fort Frances Tribal Area Health Services and Karen Campbell at the Canadian Women's Foundation.

Fay Faraday  

This episode was produced by Elvira Truglia and Fay Faraday. The main song that you heard is called "I Am Not Alone". It was created by youth at PLEA Community Services Society in British Columbia. This podcast is made possible thanks to the financial support of the Canadian Women's Foundation. 

Elvira Truglia  

Thanks for listening to The Traffik Report, speaking truth to power on sex and labour trafficking. Until next time.